Even when the government is open, no one accuses# Congress of being particularly productive or a## welloiled machine.

So, it's not surprising that# this least effective branch of government is even## more ineffective this week.

Speaker Mike Johnson# has already canceled House votes for next week,## which means that the government probably isn't# reopening anytime soon.

Although, today I can## report that the Senate's top Democrat and top# Republican, Chuck Schumer and John Thoon, were## seen speaking for at least 34 seconds.

So, there's# that.

The question tonight, why do lawmakers keep## shutting down the government?

Joining me tonight# to discuss this and more, Leanne Caldwell is the## chief Washington correspondent for Puck News.# Andrew Desidario is a senior congressional## reporter for Punch Bowl News.

Tuluo Alonoripa is# a staff writer at The Atlantic.

And Ashley Parker## covers the White House for The Atlantic.

Thank you# all for joining me.

Um Ashley, let's go right to## you.

You're a veteran White House correspondent.# Um, what is Trump getting out of this shutdown?## So, first, it's not necessarily something he would# have chosen, but he likes a fight.

Um, he thinks,## uh, publicly, gleefully that it benefits him# and Republicans politically.

I think that still## remains to be seen.

Uh, he's also enjoying the# trolling aspect.

I know that's a weird thing## to say about the president of the United States# that it was exciting to put a little sombrero on## Hakeem Jeff hat, but he has sort of enjoyed that.# Wait, remind remind our normie viewers what you're## referring to because not everybody saw the Hakee# Jeff meme.

Yes.

So there was a it looked like## AI generated meme of Chuck Schumer and Hakee# Jeff.

Um they were coming out and and talking## about a meeting and where shutdown negotiations# stood and they basically dubbed it over to have## Chuck Schumer saying things like nobody likes the# Democrats and then they doctorred uh Hakee Jeff to## have a little squiggly mustache and a sombrero# on his head.

Lincoln used to do this stuff all## the time.

Yeah.

Anyway, go on.

I just thought I# just thought maybe some people precedent.

Yeah,## some people aren't extremely online.

Anyway,# go ahead.

But but so he he has bit enjoyed## the fighting trolling nature.

I would add one# final thing sort of this opportunity for the## deconstruction of the administrative state.

But I# will say on that he likes threatening Democrats,## right?

Saying we're going to do what project# 2025 promised.

We're going to fire all these## workers.

We're going to figure out what# agencies we can just eliminate forever.## It's a fun thing to say that for him.

That's why# I say it's trolling.

But it's not quite clear that## that's actually what he wants to do.

And there's# some understanding within his orbit that there## might be some blowback if they were actually to do# that.

Um Leanne, you just wrote, quote, "In a way,## a government shutdown is among the more normal# things to occur in Washington since Donald Trump## returned to the White House.

certainly more# normal than the US government taking stakes## in private companies or the president selling his# own cryptocurrency or the military being deployed## to American cities etc.

This part is all comfort# uh comfortingly familiar.

Um but Tulu in a piece## you just wrote with Jonathan Lemir you argued# that Trump's handling of the shutdown is very## different than the 2019 shutdown.

and I quote in# part, "Uh, 34 days into the previous government## shutdown in 2019, reporters asked President Trump# if he had a message for the thousands of federal## employees who were about to miss another# paycheck."

Quote, "I love them.

I respect## them.

I really appreciate the great job they're# doing," he said at the time.

The following day,## caving after weeks of punishing cable news# coverage, he signed legislation to reopen the## government, lauding furled employees as incredible# patriots and and and so on.

And then you wrote,## "Doesn't really sound like the same guy, does# it?"

So, Leanne Tollu, fight it out.

Like,## is this a normal shutdown or is this a a new kind# of shutdown?

Well, I'll go first.

You can review## me afterwards.

Um, what is normal is the fact# that there is a shutdown.

This is a strategy that## has been used by the p a party that doesn't feel# like they have a lot of power over and over again.## becoming more and more common.

They beca, you# know, they happened in the 90s, 2013, 2018,## 2018 into 19, and now here we are again.

Um,# and so this has become a very normal course## of doing business in Washington, whether there is# actually a shutdown or a threat of a shutdown.

Um,## this is the only leverage that Democrats feel like# they have in a in a a a system right now where the## administration and the president is just rolling,# you know, so fast over over Democrats, over the## Congress specifically.

And so they're trying# to invoke some sort of um, you know, pressure## on the president in a way that might sty him or# not.

Right.

I I'm going to uh say something that## we don't hear enough in this uh city, which is I# agree with you.

Uh I'm not going to uh try to defr I I I do think that a lot of what Leanne is# saying is true.

We have had these shutdowns.## This is the Democrats only chance to sort# of fight back in an era where they feel like## they've been taking blows from Donald Trump in# the White House over and over and over again.## What makes this shutdown somewhat different# from what we've seen in the past is that Trump## is weaponizing it against Democrats and against# Democratic cities.

Russ Vote, who is his office## of management and budget director, is specifically# targeting Democratic projects, Democratic cities,## cutting funding from these various projects in# places like New York and California, saying that## it's because of the shutdown.

We haven't seen# that in the past because those constituents are## supposed to be Americans.

They're supposed to be# constituents of the president.

It's not they're## from red states or blue states.

So, you know, they# can be attacked or not attacked.

So, that's one of## the things that's different about this.

And Trump# seems to be relishing the opportunity to go after## quote unquote Democrat agencies and Democratic# constituents.

And I agree with Tulu, too.

Yeah.## Andrew, pick a fight.

Sorry, audience.

Uh, who's# which one of these people is wrong?

I actually## think they're they're they're both right.

And I'll# and I'll tell you why.

They're just killing me.## They're killing me tonight.

Well, if you look back# to the 2013 shutdown when Ted Cruz famously shut## down the government because Democrats wouldn't# repeal their signature legislative achievement,## which was Obamacare at the time, um, and you# compare it to sort of right now what Democrats## are doing.

It really is the same tactic, right?# It's the minority party exerting the only leverage## they have over any situation in Washington when# you don't control any lever of power.

And what's## interesting right now is that Democrats were the# ones who have historically railed against this## tactic about flirting with a shutdown, forcing# a shutdown.

But they are openly saying this time## is different because in their view, you've got# a lawless president.

Democrats, you know, the## Democratic base wants them to fight harder.

And# that's just not a that's not just a trit phrase.

I## mean that it's literally true.

Like that is what# the base of the Democratic party wants.

And in## the Senate, that is what's being reflected right# now when you see everyone from Chuck Schumer to## retiring Senator Gene Shaheen from New Hampshire,# historically a moderate and bipartisan dealmaker## at this point right now on the same page.

The# question is, does that shift?

Does that eventually## as the the sort of negative effects of a shutdown# start to compound themselves a little bit here## over the next couple weeks, do those moderate or# retiring Democratic senators start to break?

You## just spoke to John Thoon about this.

What are you# getting from him on that question?

Well, he feels## very comfortable with the position he's in right# now because his whole view is that on this issue## of the Obamacare subsidies, which again for the# viewers is it's these enhanced tax credits for## healthcare premiums that were enacted uh during# co and his whole thing is I'm happy to negotiate## on that, but once the government is open, right?# He's taking the Democrats position from 2013 and## then 2018 2019 which was don't hold the government# hostage for a policy priority that you're seeking.## Right?

And Democrats simply don't trust John# Thoon, Speaker Johnson or frankly the president of## the United States to actually want to negotiate in# good faith on extending those subsidies which will## lapse at the end of the year.

But Americans will# very soon within the next couple of weeks here## start getting those letters saying either they're# going to lose their coverage or their premiums are## going to rise.

And an election 2026 where cost of# living is going to be the big issue that could be## uh detrimental to Republicans in many races.

If# you add on top of it people's premiums going up,## that's a problem for Republicans and I think# they recognize that.

We're going to we're going## to come to the possible consequences in a in# a minute.

I want to talk about Russ's vote,## somebody you mentioned, but it's also a year from# midterms.

And if we know anything about the first## nine months or so of this administration is# that 20 million things are going to happen## between now and then, it's very hard to it's very# hard to predict how this is going to impact yet.## But the healthcare element I think is something# that is a deliberate choice by Democrats,