Funding for To The Contrary provided by: This week on To The Contrary: First, an upstart company helps women detect breast cancer sooner.

Then a comedy festival where performers are being accused of taking blood money.

Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbé.

Welcome to To The Contrary, a discussion of news and social trends from varied perspectives.

Up first, breast cancer screenings.

Breast cancer is the most commonly diagnosed female cancer.

Early screening is critical, yet traditional mammograms can miss cancers in younger women or women with dense breast tissue.

BeSound is a startup trying to do away with this gap, using ultrasound and artificial intelligence to speed up and make cancer screenings more available.

Screenings also act as a so-called front door to follow up care for women under the threat of developing breast cancer.

Joining me this week ar feminist activist Erin Matson, Independent Women's Forum policy analyst Neeraja Deshpande, Democratic strategist Nailah Amaru and Washington Examiner investigations editor Sarah Bedford.

Welcome to you all.

So how does everybody feel about new development in screening for breast cancer, and why is it taken so long since mammograms started when I was still a teenager and they're still not.

There's still plenty of more screenings for men on various forms of cancer.

Let's start with you, Erin.

Bonnie, I'm so excited about this new test that if it were available by me, you'd be talking to an empty chair right now.

Okay.

Next.

Yeah, I mean, I, I'm concerned more abou reductions in overall mortality.

And I generally think that, there needs to be better evidence that suggests that mammograms actually reduce overall mortality, rather than some of the other benchmarks that are used.

I'm excited about this development.

I, I do think, however, while artificial intelligence can help boost the accuracy, it also carries the risk of incorporating human biases if the technology is trained on incomplete dat or biased information as well, which would just continue to reinforce health disparities.

Early detection is such a important piece of the puzzle.

It's crucial to securing a good outcome and can be the difference between a case of cancer that ends in death, or a case of cancer that can be managed.

And a lot of times you see with breast cancer or colorectal cancer, the guidelines of when people are supposed to start getting screened don't really match up with the higher and higher incidences of cancer in young people that we're seeing.

All right.

So let's start the open question with you, Erin.

Why are all these additiona finally screenings coming up now when screenings have existed for, you know, technological screenings have existed for 50 years and men, there have always bee a lot more screenings for men.

Yeah.

No, it's a great question.

And, Bonnie the mammogram is a good thing, but it doesn't capture all populations.

I am one of those people.

I have extremely dense breasts, so every single time I get a mammogram, I get a not that says your mammograms clear And by the way, you are much more likely to get breast cancer.

And by the way, we are much less likely to see it if it's developing in you.

And then I'm sent on my merry way.

And I think that there' clearly populations that do need additional screening.

The piece that I'm most concerned about is affordability.

And, you know, the private sector is stepping up with some new solutions.

That's exciting.

But I also want to make sure that this is something that everyone can access, not just people who have the ability to pay for it out of pocket.

Nailah, your thoughts.

Is this going to help particularly women of color?

Because mammograms are expensive.

Absolutely.

You know, I think that, you know, health care access, and the cost to health care access can be quite expensive depending on your insurance or if you are insured at all.

So I definitely thin that this is a really exciting new development that really can help, you know, different groups of women, who may not, again, necessarily have access to health care, which is really important again, just to try and build as much equity as we can to making sure that women, especially women of color, women who come from socioeconomic classes where it might be difficult to attain insurance that is comprehensive.

It allows them to get those additional screenings, particularly again, as it's been noted here, for women with dense breasts, and, and insurance may not necessarily cover those screenings.

So I definitely thin this is an exciting development.

Everything that's been said, I you know, on the one hand, I agree with it.

On the other hand, I mean, I have also seen evidence from oncologists that suggest that, you know, sometimes we can have a problem with over screening people, and that there are actually— there actually is a cost to over screening.

And when you look at mammograms and a lot of different cancer detections, what, what sometimes happens is that ove screening actually has a cost.

And it's not clear that overall mortality declines because of early access.

So I think there also— there should always be care about any medical intervention, including screenings that we do.

And we should have robust, randomized control trial evidence that says, you know, mammograms— early screening works or early screening doesn't.

And we should like, really you know, go and fund research that studies, that overall mortality as opposed to the benchmarks that we currently use.

And to that point, does anybody else feel like the mammogram industry drives you crazy?

Because having been screened now for 50 plus years, I go in there feeling fine, and they tell me so many things about why I'm likely to get cancer and likely to have this humongous problem in my life and it always comes up negative.

And I've even had reports that I had sent back to my, OB-GYN specialist who examine me because of the dense tissue where the the kid in the, in the, clinic said, oh, I don't know what that is.

You better come back here in a month to get another mammogram.

And I say, no, grow up.

It's not anything.

I'm going to show it first t my OB-GYN and see what she says.

Anybody else run into that?

Bonnie, I can tell you what drives me crazy is the pink industry in general.

And this idea that let's make a pink lemonade, shower gel out of breast cancer and we're supporting something.

It's like, come on, let's move on here and actually deal with roo causes and help support people, look at why cancer rates are going up, particularly in young people, and to give people access to screenings.

We know that health care acces is a huge issue in this country, and that's showing up with breast cancer.

So do you think it's reall poor people who aren't getting, can't afford to ge and are afraid maybe—immigrants— to go in and get screened?

Because there will be some horrible consequence as a result of getting in contact with the US medical service?

I mean, I sincerely doubt that.

I think actually what is happening more is that people, especially since Covid, have lost trust in public health in the public health apparatus, and that excessive interventions are something that are looked upon, you know, negatively at this point.

And I think one really fantastic book that I was reading this summer, was by the by the man who is now, the chief medical and scientific officer at the FDA, and he's the director of Biologics and Drugs and Vaccines.

And he wrote this book called Malignant on cancer medicine, which is his actual specialty, his academic specialty.

And it really goes into a lo of, you know, what we know about cancer, about cance screenings, is not necessarily, you know, based on robust evidence.

So I think, you know, as we look at these public health matters, I don't think, you know, we have— I think we have fewer immigrants who are concerned about, you know, say ICE coming to the clinic.

Like I don't think that's like a real concern— But really, nowadays, who knows?

Because the administration is sending ICE agents and other kind of border enforcement personnel, the, you know, the National Guard whom they've called up on this, to all kinds of places that never used to be thought of as investigative grounds for finding cancer scofflaws or something like that.

But you know what?

I think the thing is, when you look at people who are actually going into, I mean, like when you look at the reasons people are avoiding medicine and this is people of all races, it's because they don't trust doctors, they don't trust medicines, they don't trust drugs, they don't trust screenings, they don't trust anything.

They want nothing to do with the medical industry.

They want nothing to do with pharma.

I'm not one of those people.

I, generally speaking like—I've lost trust in public health.

But, you know, I still trust vaccines.

I still trust medicine, I still trust a lot of things that a lot of people have lost faith in.

And so I think the point is rebuilding that faith is not about these bigger picture concerns that I think, honestly, like those are concerns with the ICE and this and that, that people are sort of thinking about in the New York Times.

They're not concerns that people are having in real life.

In real life, the concerns on the groun are just very, very different.

And they're often, you know, can I trust my doctor?

Can I, can I trust that my doctor isn't motivated by politics?

Those are the real questions that I think Americans have and immigrants and people of color.

Do you not think that—I mean, I follow this kind of stuff closely, and I'm no M.D., trust me.

But stress is definitely a factor with getting cancer.

And I think the mammogram industry loves, loves to stress people out.

And it may be appropriate in certain classes if your parent has had it, if you're— if you have the Berocca gene, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But why stress out everybody?

I think another part of this conversation that's really important here is spreading awareness and education among women, that this is not just a problem for women over 60.

We are seeing much higher incidences of cancer in women under 40.

Even in women under 35, mammograms and regular cancer screenings are somewhat— are something that that someone my age didn't typically think abou as part of routine medical care.

But there's growing evidence that it should be, and there's growing evidence that things not typically thought of as carcinogens do contribute to this growing incidences of cancer.

We saw First Lady of Florida Casey DeSantis, talking about the SAD, the Standard American Diet, her doctor telling her that probably contributed to her young cancer diagnosi when she had no family history.

We now know that alcohol consumption actually contributes meaningfully to cancer.

We don't typically think o alcohol as a carcinogen, right?

As you mentioned, stress can be a contributing factor.

None of these things are— And all of these things combined make you a hot red target.

Exactly.

But younge women are not necessarily aware that they might actually be good candidates for early screenings, even if they have no family history if they're regularly consuming alcohol, they're stressed out at work and they're eating a lot of cheeseburgers.

That's not something that is taught to this younger generation.

It's a fair poin that there are groups of women, particularly within immigrant communities, women of color, due to past history, that there is a mistrust within the health care system, first and foremost.

And also you know, the lack of education to the point that was just raised.

You know, women are getting younger and younger in terms of diagnoses.

And so where is that, that outreach in terms of education, a basic awareness that you know, just because you are not a woman of a certain age, you are—that you are not at risk.

And finally, I just want to land the plane and say, you know, access to health care is a very real issue in terms of, you know, why why more women, may not necessarily being— take advantage of screenings.

But I definitely do hope that with innovative apps and AI that it does make acces to health care more equitable.

Again, just to provide some protection and coverage and awareness, most importantly, for women who may not, again, necessarily come from a background where they have convenient or consistent access to health care.

All right.

Let us know what you think.

Follow me on X @BonnieErbe.

From health new to the world of comedy.

Comedian David Cross is calling out the Riyadh Comedy Festival, criticizing stars such as Dav Chappelle, Louis C.K., Bill Burr and Kevin Hart for taking part in that festival.

Most of those appearing are men.

Cross said the participants were taking, quote unquote, blood money and expressing disgus that the comics he once admired would help cover u those crimes of a dictatorship.

The festival features dozens of big names, but critics say it's really there to distract from Saudi Arabia's record: jailing women's right activists, limiting free speech and engaging in torture and worse, normally shunned by legitimate governments.

Others criticize the Saud government for cracking down on LGBTQ people and controlling women's lives.

So, Neeraja, let's start with you on this one.

Saudi Arabia under like George W Bush was really seen as a pretty virulent enemy of the United States and a torturer.

And a this and a that.

Have they just decided that business dollar and tourism are more important, and so they're going to either hide or stop their persecution of people who can't hel but be thrown into their jails if the government decides that's where they should go.

I mean, in general, I think, you know, there's been attempts at normalization with Saudi Arabia and I mean, in general, as a, you know, as an American, as just a person who lives in the world, you know, I, I hope for— I hope for more normal relations.

And, you know, I hope in some ways that, that these sorts of, commercial enterprises happening in places like Saudi Arabia can help, you know, improve their culture a little bit.

And sort of push them awa from some of the harshest abuses that they've been committed.

But do you think the other Emirates and the very strict countries with religious hierarchies leading the country— do you think they're reall going to pay attention to that or that what they want is the law of, you know, the law of their religion enforced in the land?

Well, I mean I think there's different ways of enforcing those laws.

Right.

However they want to enforce them.

But I think the main thing is that there can be normalization with, with those countries.

And I also just generally think, I mean, when you're thinking about comedians, you know, sort of performing in, in other countries, you know, that's a matter of their free speech, too.

I think, you know, there's probably limits when it comes to like, you know, we're fighting a literal war against them, but we're not, right?

So I don't I don't see it as, like, a matter of loyalty to this country or not.

I think, it's jus part of a normalization process that's, you know, I mean controversial, of course, but, I don't see it as a bad thing necessarily.

Is the world going to forget about Saudi Arabia's history of abuse?

Or is it going to still pay attention and not be dissuaded by this at all?

Bonnie I'm not— I think that folks are maybe misplacing some concerns about this comedy festival.

I want to first ground what I think in my role as a feminist, and then I'll talk about it in my role as an artist as well, and how I identify with this.

Just from a—as a feminist I want to quote Jamal Khashoggi, who was murdered by the Saudi government.

He said women today should have the same rights as men, and all citizens should have the right to speak their minds without fear of imprisonment.

He was kille that same year for doing that, right?

I think we need to ground this discussion in that.

There are horrific things that happen in Saudi Arabia.

There are horrific thing that happen in many countries.

I myself have participated in activism years ago, calling on the Olympic Committee to bar Saudi Arabia from participation because of their treatment of women.

That said, I am also an artist and if I was a comedian and I was invited to this conference, would I have gone?

Absolutely, yes.

I think that injecting speec into those areas is important.

And I know that they put up some restrictions that are just kind of laughable.

I mean, honestly, it shows how insecure the government is that they're barring certain toxic topics.

But I would try to get around them, right?

Spell those out for us.

Yeah.

So what they were barring, they were saying, you know, you can't say anything that criticizes religion, that could reflect poorly on the government.

Here's what I would do.

And I would think thi is the challenge for comedians.

I mean, those are exactly the buttons to push.

So you think about how you can do that in a more clandestine way with allegory, etc.. So I think it's— I think some of the artists, I think it's well intentioned to say, hey, stay away from that.

But at the same time, I think we can have more impact by participating.

Since this is all being controlled and one would assume on some level anyway, not so much censored as monitored by the Saudi Arabians.

Sarah, do you think there' going to be feedback from this, and are people going to be punished later on, even if not right away when the world is watching?

Well, Saudi Arabia's intent is to normalize relations with the West by holding this festival.

I think the last thing they'd want to do is arrest one of the entertainers.

But, you know, the pressure on these comedians to sort of take a stand on human rights, that's exactly the kind of thing that people are fed up with.

They are tired of entertainers weighing in on politics.

I think the last person on Planet Earth whose opinion I care about on geopolitics is Louis C.K.

I don't really need to hea what he thinks of Saudi Arabia and— But its not supposed to be, but— Well, wait a minute, Sarah, is it?

Let me just ask you this.

It's not supposed to be news.

It's supposed to be comedy.

So you may not look to him for what his opinions are on the news of the day, but you would like to get a laugh out of whatever he might say, right?

Right.

But the— the segment started with the criticism from fellow comedians of accepting blood money, and the pressure on those comedians to, instead of attending the festival, to come out and take a stand against Saudi Arabia.

That seems silly and misplaced Under the Trump administration, we've seen this sort of pivot away from prioritizing the moral commitments when it comes to th relationship with Saudi Arabia and looking at the strategic value of the relationship and how that sort of outweighs these other concerns.

So that's sort of the backdrop that this is happening in as well, is that we d see a pivot towards realpolitik, on the global stag from the Trump administration.

And one more question for all of you.

If you were advising the Saudi government on communications, would you—would you dare?

And I say that as a joke, but also not as a joke.

Would you step in and try to tell them how to deal with this kind of a setup?

Is it possibl that they could come out of this looking like a great forward thinking country country and not, not offending many of their own citizens and still look like they care about the future, and they want to be accepted into the western part of the world?

Well, I think the already kind of are doing that, right?

I think that's the entire point of this, you know, this meeting and this, you know, this.

It's basically an olive branch to even invite someone like Louis C.K.

to Saudi Arabia given his history specifically.

And I just think, you know, in general, you know, it's not—nothing happens overnight, right?

It's these little, little steps that eventually normalize relations over a long enough period of time.

And I think, you know you can have a country that once committed human rights abuses that stops committing human rights abuses when when money is involved, right?

When trade is involved, when relationships with other people are involved.

And, you know, I think my fingers are really crossed.

I'm optimistic that, that can happen with these, these, you know, Gulf Arab states.

Bonnie, I said earlier that I would go if I was invited, if I was a comedian, I would go, I would, I would go speak directly to people.

I would, you know, try to pus boundaries as much as I could.

If I was asked to work for the Saudi government specifically, I would not do that.

I think that's where we draw the line.

That would be where my personal moral calculus would be.

As a lifelong feminist activis and someone who believes deeply in peace and freedom, that just isn't a line that I would cross.

But would I go into Saudi Arabia and speak directl to people sharing my art, yes.

And you don't think that's kind of slipping over the line of being influenced?

Are they going to pay for your airfare over there?

Are they going to pay for your hotel?

Are you getting a fee for your appearance?

I mean, all these are things that I know as a journalist, people can chronicle over the years and they turn into news stories.

And as a feminist and as someone whose art would most certainly be feminist art, would I allow the Saudi government to pay for me to spread that?

Yes, without any hesitation.

It's just that I wouldn' want to work for them directly.

All right.

Anybody else want to say something before we switch topics?

I think that I—well, one, I'm not holding my breath, that the festival is going to, you know, necessarily change anything about the Saudi government, the regime.

I see it as a festival that is boosting a PR campaign.

Right.

And the point was raised, but I want to amplify is that money buys legitimacy, right?

And so the comedians that have said yes are being paid very, very well.

And I think that the pinpoint that that has is that it does contribute to this normalization of the reality that entertainment erases human rights violations, and that there are certain people who are willing to legitimize that if the price is right.

Tilly Norwood is being called Hollywood's next Natalie Portman, but she's not even a real human being.

In fact, she or it is the creatio of a tech company who says the AI character could be the sta of upcoming movies regardless.

So my question is, if you were asked to interact with an AI character on national or international television or online, would you do it?

Sarah Bedford?

No, I think there are some areas of our economy, of our society where AI's advancement feels like an inevitability.

Right?

I see that in the newsroom as well.

AI tools are becoming more an more integrated into our work.

Actors and actresses is not one of them.

That has to be an inevitability.

This feels like a no brainer that the entertainment industry that audiences can simply say, we'd love a real human to be providing our entertainment.

Yeah, I agree, I think that AI undermines something fundamental to the artistry of being a human and experiences that are unique to us.

So I would not have an interest in interacting with AI, and in that particular respect, just because I do think that there are some aspects, some lines of work, that really are or should be and remain human driven art form.

Yeah.

I mean, I concur I really don't see any value to AI acting because it' not really, you know, emoting.

It's not expressing, you know, the inner desires, contents, hopes, dreams, loves, fierce imagination of a human soul.

And I think that's what we look to acting for.

And I think that's the sort of thing that, you know, is just going to be a fad for a little bit, maybe, and then eventually die out as audiences lose interest.

Erin, close us out.

Respectfully, ew.

Like I just don't want an AI actress.

I don't want to watch that movie.

I don't want to interact with it.

Honestly, I'm just really happ to see Hollywood pushing back.

All right.

Thank you for a fascinating discussion.

That's it for this edition of To The Contrary.

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